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	<title>Comments on: Bazaar and its Rockage</title>
	<atom:link href="http://kubasik.net/blog/2008/05/19/bazaar-and-its-rockage/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://kubasik.net/blog/2008/05/19/bazaar-and-its-rockage/</link>
	<description>A Place For My Mind to Wander</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 04:36:20 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1</generator>
		<item>
		<title>By: Jelmer Vernooij</title>
		<link>http://kubasik.net/blog/2008/05/19/bazaar-and-its-rockage/#comment-34215</link>
		<dc:creator>Jelmer Vernooij</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 15:27:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kubasik.net/blog/?p=133#comment-34215</guid>
		<description>João Marcus: The dependencies for bzr-svn are certainly one of its disadvantages if you're not on Debian or Ubuntu. But how is bzr-svn not two way integration? It allows you to push/pull from Subversion branches just like you would with any "regular" bzr branch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>João Marcus: The dependencies for bzr-svn are certainly one of its disadvantages if you&#8217;re not on Debian or Ubuntu. But how is bzr-svn not two way integration? It allows you to push/pull from Subversion branches just like you would with any &#8220;regular&#8221; bzr branch.</p>
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		<title>By: Pieter</title>
		<link>http://kubasik.net/blog/2008/05/19/bazaar-and-its-rockage/#comment-33229</link>
		<dc:creator>Pieter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 21:22:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kubasik.net/blog/?p=133#comment-33229</guid>
		<description>I tried bazaar a few times, but it still is really slow.

Any bazaar operation, even something like "bzr status" in a directory without a repository takes at least 200ms before finishing. That's just enough time to have to wait until text is displayed on the screen, which can be really irritating.

I tried to do a few benchmarks on large bazaar repositories, but couldn't find any well-known projects on the http://bazaar-vcs.org/WhoUsesBzr page. That's why I tried the recently posted gtk+ import.

Even doing something simple as displaying the last log message (bzr log -l1) takes multiple seconds to run. Doing a "bzr log -l1 Makefile.am" takes 17(!!) seconds to display the last revision touching the makefile!

The same is true for the smaller gedit repository -- 1.2 seconds to display last log message, 3.8 seconds to display last change for Makefile.am. And that's with just 5000 commits! (That's with the recently released bazaar 1.5)

It seems that bazaar just doesn't scale at all. With those kind of results, it would be a mistake to choose bazaar for your project if you think it might get more than a few commits, or you'll be waiting for every bzr operation you do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tried bazaar a few times, but it still is really slow.</p>
<p>Any bazaar operation, even something like &#8220;bzr status&#8221; in a directory without a repository takes at least 200ms before finishing. That&#8217;s just enough time to have to wait until text is displayed on the screen, which can be really irritating.</p>
<p>I tried to do a few benchmarks on large bazaar repositories, but couldn&#8217;t find any well-known projects on the <a href="http://bazaar-vcs.org/WhoUsesBzr" rel="nofollow">http://bazaar-vcs.org/WhoUsesBzr</a> page. That&#8217;s why I tried the recently posted gtk+ import.</p>
<p>Even doing something simple as displaying the last log message (bzr log -l1) takes multiple seconds to run. Doing a &#8220;bzr log -l1 Makefile.am&#8221; takes 17(!!) seconds to display the last revision touching the makefile!</p>
<p>The same is true for the smaller gedit repository &#8212; 1.2 seconds to display last log message, 3.8 seconds to display last change for Makefile.am. And that&#8217;s with just 5000 commits! (That&#8217;s with the recently released bazaar 1.5)</p>
<p>It seems that bazaar just doesn&#8217;t scale at all. With those kind of results, it would be a mistake to choose bazaar for your project if you think it might get more than a few commits, or you&#8217;ll be waiting for every bzr operation you do.</p>
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		<title>By: Felipe Contreras</title>
		<link>http://kubasik.net/blog/2008/05/19/bazaar-and-its-rockage/#comment-33132</link>
		<dc:creator>Felipe Contreras</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 16:51:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kubasik.net/blog/?p=133#comment-33132</guid>
		<description>1) Bzr is Python-Tastic? Well, what happens if I don't like Python? Which I don't.

The rest of the points also apply to git, except "Bzr works on Windows", but there is work towards that, and given how much git facilitates development I bet in no time we will have a tortoise-git or something.

I'll have to learn bazaar anyway, but the fact that it's developed in Python is a big drawback to me.

Git FTW!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1) Bzr is Python-Tastic? Well, what happens if I don&#8217;t like Python? Which I don&#8217;t.</p>
<p>The rest of the points also apply to git, except &#8220;Bzr works on Windows&#8221;, but there is work towards that, and given how much git facilitates development I bet in no time we will have a tortoise-git or something.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll have to learn bazaar anyway, but the fact that it&#8217;s developed in Python is a big drawback to me.</p>
<p>Git FTW!</p>
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		<title>By: phil</title>
		<link>http://kubasik.net/blog/2008/05/19/bazaar-and-its-rockage/#comment-33045</link>
		<dc:creator>phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 08:57:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kubasik.net/blog/?p=133#comment-33045</guid>
		<description>Problem with bzr is the lack of good online repository browser... Launchpad uses Loggerhead, which sucks :/ There are not much alternatives for bugs-system management either... Launchpad is the only way to go</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Problem with bzr is the lack of good online repository browser&#8230; Launchpad uses Loggerhead, which sucks :/ There are not much alternatives for bugs-system management either&#8230; Launchpad is the only way to go</p>
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		<title>By: visik7</title>
		<link>http://kubasik.net/blog/2008/05/19/bazaar-and-its-rockage/#comment-33042</link>
		<dc:creator>visik7</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 07:00:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kubasik.net/blog/?p=133#comment-33042</guid>
		<description>is there a package for bzr-avahi for ubuntu ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>is there a package for bzr-avahi for ubuntu ?</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://kubasik.net/blog/2008/05/19/bazaar-and-its-rockage/#comment-33003</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 04:13:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kubasik.net/blog/?p=133#comment-33003</guid>
		<description>I ? bzr too!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I ? bzr too!</p>
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		<title>By: João Marcus</title>
		<link>http://kubasik.net/blog/2008/05/19/bazaar-and-its-rockage/#comment-32875</link>
		<dc:creator>João Marcus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 22:33:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kubasik.net/blog/?p=133#comment-32875</guid>
		<description>Bzr is fantastic, but bzr-svn still sucks. It requires patches to svn, and it's not really a two-way integration. Even in Windows, for now, Git-SVN is the only decent choice if you need SVN integration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bzr is fantastic, but bzr-svn still sucks. It requires patches to svn, and it&#8217;s not really a two-way integration. Even in Windows, for now, Git-SVN is the only decent choice if you need SVN integration.</p>
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		<title>By: nud</title>
		<link>http://kubasik.net/blog/2008/05/19/bazaar-and-its-rockage/#comment-32867</link>
		<dc:creator>nud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 22:26:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kubasik.net/blog/?p=133#comment-32867</guid>
		<description>Avdi: but you can gc or repack when you don't need to wait for git to finish, which is not the case with checkout/diff/commit ;-)

Anyway, my point was just to show that, whatever DVCS you prefer, you can pretty much take the same arguments and put them forward, subjectivity helping...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Avdi: but you can gc or repack when you don&#8217;t need to wait for git to finish, which is not the case with checkout/diff/commit <img src='http://kubasik.net/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
Anyway, my point was just to show that, whatever DVCS you prefer, you can pretty much take the same arguments and put them forward, subjectivity helping&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Here we are now, entertain us &#187; Bazaar love</title>
		<link>http://kubasik.net/blog/2008/05/19/bazaar-and-its-rockage/#comment-32839</link>
		<dc:creator>Here we are now, entertain us &#187; Bazaar love</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 21:29:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kubasik.net/blog/?p=133#comment-32839</guid>
		<description>[...] http://kubasik.net/blog/2008/05/19/bazaar-and-its-rockage/ http://www.grillbar.org/wordpress/?p=271 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] <a href="http://kubasik.net/blog/2008/05/19/bazaar-and-its-rockage/" rel="nofollow">http://kubasik.net/blog/2008/05/19/bazaar-and-its-rockage/</a> <a href="http://www.grillbar.org/wordpress/?p=271" rel="nofollow">http://www.grillbar.org/wordpress/?p=271</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Avdi</title>
		<link>http://kubasik.net/blog/2008/05/19/bazaar-and-its-rockage/#comment-32823</link>
		<dc:creator>Avdi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 21:09:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kubasik.net/blog/?p=133#comment-32823</guid>
		<description>Robin, Nud: Git is only faster if you don't count the time it takes to GC and repack - tasks that the other tools do automatically.  Once you factor those in it is substantially slower.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin, Nud: Git is only faster if you don&#8217;t count the time it takes to GC and repack - tasks that the other tools do automatically.  Once you factor those in it is substantially slower.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert 'Groby' Blum</title>
		<link>http://kubasik.net/blog/2008/05/19/bazaar-and-its-rockage/#comment-32804</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert 'Groby' Blum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 20:35:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kubasik.net/blog/?p=133#comment-32804</guid>
		<description>@nud

Sorry, but git does *not* work in Windows, at least not seamlessly. If I need to run a separate shell just to get my revision control running, that's not exactly seamless.

I do hope that that's getting addressed by the 'Summer of Code' git projects, though. In the meantime, I'm back to evaluating bazaar again - neither hg nor git can be coerced to work with tailor under windows without major effort.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@nud</p>
<p>Sorry, but git does *not* work in Windows, at least not seamlessly. If I need to run a separate shell just to get my revision control running, that&#8217;s not exactly seamless.</p>
<p>I do hope that that&#8217;s getting addressed by the &#8216;Summer of Code&#8217; git projects, though. In the meantime, I&#8217;m back to evaluating bazaar again - neither hg nor git can be coerced to work with tailor under windows without major effort.</p>
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		<title>By: nud</title>
		<link>http://kubasik.net/blog/2008/05/19/bazaar-and-its-rockage/#comment-32799</link>
		<dc:creator>nud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 20:11:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kubasik.net/blog/?p=133#comment-32799</guid>
		<description>What's fun with DVCS arguments is that it's pretty much always applicable to all the opponents. It's just the explanation that differs a bit.

Let's have a try with git (nothing personal, but I like the exercise).

1) Git is script-tastic! - As a day to day bash user, it is very easy to script tasks and such with the low level plumbing git offers me. And better: it's just the same using perl or python or even ruby!
2) Git has a ton of porcelains (equivalent to plugins). git-svn is probably the most successful dvcs-svn bridge out there, and gitk, git-bugzilla and others are just rocking.
3) Git works on Windows. Yeah, HG and Bzr do too ;-)
4) Git is easy to share. Not only you can push your changes to some central repo (using git's protocol or ssh or http or rsync or whatever), but you can also easily send them by e-mail or to your bugzilla with a single command!
5) Git is the fastest out there, even for big projects. Every command that takes 30s on the linux kernel is too slow according to its developpers. Isn't that a good benchmark?
6) Git is small. Gedit's repository, containing all its history, is less than a half of a single svn checkout.
7) Git is simple, predictible. It stores everything in a single directory with very simple file formats, stable over time, and well described: I don't need git to take my data out of an old tree if I don't have it (yeah, it's pretty important to me since one day git might disappear).
8) Git is reliable - A massive suite of unit-tests, and there is always a way to recover from a mistake (reflog, etc.). Being able to undo is always better than a warning, isn't it?
9) Most of all, its a feeling. I especially like the way it stays out of the way. You can code as much as you want, and then switch in "VCS" mode and commit your changes, the way you want. git-add --patch is a must for that: it allows you to choose which hunks of your diff you want to commit, one by one. This way I can just write code, and git is there, doing whatever it should do, nothing more, nothing less.

Do someone want to do the same for hg now ? ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s fun with DVCS arguments is that it&#8217;s pretty much always applicable to all the opponents. It&#8217;s just the explanation that differs a bit.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s have a try with git (nothing personal, but I like the exercise).</p>
<p>1) Git is script-tastic! - As a day to day bash user, it is very easy to script tasks and such with the low level plumbing git offers me. And better: it&#8217;s just the same using perl or python or even ruby!<br />
2) Git has a ton of porcelains (equivalent to plugins). git-svn is probably the most successful dvcs-svn bridge out there, and gitk, git-bugzilla and others are just rocking.<br />
3) Git works on Windows. Yeah, HG and Bzr do too <img src='http://kubasik.net/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> 4) Git is easy to share. Not only you can push your changes to some central repo (using git&#8217;s protocol or ssh or http or rsync or whatever), but you can also easily send them by e-mail or to your bugzilla with a single command!<br />
5) Git is the fastest out there, even for big projects. Every command that takes 30s on the linux kernel is too slow according to its developpers. Isn&#8217;t that a good benchmark?<br />
6) Git is small. Gedit&#8217;s repository, containing all its history, is less than a half of a single svn checkout.<br />
7) Git is simple, predictible. It stores everything in a single directory with very simple file formats, stable over time, and well described: I don&#8217;t need git to take my data out of an old tree if I don&#8217;t have it (yeah, it&#8217;s pretty important to me since one day git might disappear). <img src='http://kubasik.net/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif' alt='8)' class='wp-smiley' /> Git is reliable - A massive suite of unit-tests, and there is always a way to recover from a mistake (reflog, etc.). Being able to undo is always better than a warning, isn&#8217;t it?<br />
9) Most of all, its a feeling. I especially like the way it stays out of the way. You can code as much as you want, and then switch in &#8220;VCS&#8221; mode and commit your changes, the way you want. git-add &#8211;patch is a must for that: it allows you to choose which hunks of your diff you want to commit, one by one. This way I can just write code, and git is there, doing whatever it should do, nothing more, nothing less.</p>
<p>Do someone want to do the same for hg now ? <img src='http://kubasik.net/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Sandy</title>
		<link>http://kubasik.net/blog/2008/05/19/bazaar-and-its-rockage/#comment-32798</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 20:08:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kubasik.net/blog/?p=133#comment-32798</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the post, very level-headed.  I'm just getting into bzr...very reassuring how invisible it is to you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the post, very level-headed.  I&#8217;m just getting into bzr&#8230;very reassuring how invisible it is to you.</p>
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		<title>By: Stoffe</title>
		<link>http://kubasik.net/blog/2008/05/19/bazaar-and-its-rockage/#comment-32795</link>
		<dc:creator>Stoffe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 19:54:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kubasik.net/blog/?p=133#comment-32795</guid>
		<description>Vocal git users are why I don't try git, much like Macs and other things here in life. I know it's a stupid reason, but I don't want to be associated with annoying loudmouth "envangelists" (zealots), so I stay away. It doesn't matter how nice it is, then. Actually, Python users fits a lot into that folder as well. Just shut up and have, will you, all of you?

That said, bzr feels very "human" and I like that. Very few people have benchmark-critical needs, but a lot of people apparently have benchmark-bragging needs. Whatever...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Vocal git users are why I don&#8217;t try git, much like Macs and other things here in life. I know it&#8217;s a stupid reason, but I don&#8217;t want to be associated with annoying loudmouth &#8220;envangelists&#8221; (zealots), so I stay away. It doesn&#8217;t matter how nice it is, then. Actually, Python users fits a lot into that folder as well. Just shut up and have, will you, all of you?</p>
<p>That said, bzr feels very &#8220;human&#8221; and I like that. Very few people have benchmark-critical needs, but a lot of people apparently have benchmark-bragging needs. Whatever&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Vocal Bazaar Community!!11one</title>
		<link>http://kubasik.net/blog/2008/05/19/bazaar-and-its-rockage/#comment-32793</link>
		<dc:creator>Vocal Bazaar Community!!11one</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 19:22:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kubasik.net/blog/?p=133#comment-32793</guid>
		<description>[...] Kevin! I am a very vocal bzr user too!! [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Kevin! I am a very vocal bzr user too!! [...]</p>
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